Hello, I am trying to get my compression good on my bike along with stoping some smoke from blowing out the pipes
I wantt to change my old piston rings. I went on ebay and was surprised by the choices. Can someone explain?
I see regular rings then I see some that say 2nd Over...3rd Over...4th over
Whats the difference and how will I know what I should get without opening up the eninge first.
First you will need to strip the motor to see if it is still the std bore size.
Std bore size is 47.0 - 47.01mm. std piston size is 46.97 - 46.99mm
Bore wear limit = 47.1mm
Piston wear limit = 46.85mm
If after doing the measurements your bore and or pistons are out of spec then you will need to re-bore to the next oversize. sizes that Honda supplied are std, 0.25, 0.50, 0.75 and 1.0 mm oversize.
If your bore and pistons are in the specified specs, then you need to check the piston ring end gaps and the piston ring to piston ring groove clearance. ( Max 0.15mm. if more than this replace pistons and rings)
Ring end gaps:
Top and second ring = 0.1-0.3, (limit 0.7mm)
Oil ring = 0.1-0.3, (limit 0.7) one piece ring
If the pistons/bore are in spec then you can get away with a new set of rings (same size as the pistons that are in your motor), block will need to be honed and then check/set ring gaps etc.
OK saying all that the CB350F piston and rings are all discontinued and very hard to find.
There is another way in that you can fit the CB400F pistons and rings, which also have the better 3 piece oil ring. the std piston is 51mm, to do this you will also need a set of larger OD sleeves as the 350 ones do not have enough meat to bore to this new size.
Some machining will be required, boring the block for the new sleeves (on a milling machine) and enlarging of the upper crankcase (can be done with a dremel)
Kevin
How to choose piston rings
Post
by frnkeore » Sat Jun 01, 3:17 am
Dongya contains other products and information you need, so please check it out.
So not to high jack the 5/64 vs 1.5mm ring thread, I thought I'd open this one, to maybe get more details on how and what works, for different applications.
This ring thing, is very confusing.
I think I understand that a thinner ring with have less friction but, there are so dam many thin rings now. This is a list of the ones I know about:
.9mm = .
1mm = .
.043
1.2mm = .
1.5mm = .059
.
.
., still used in some old OEM applications
There are also different materials:
gray iron
ductile
steel
SS
And there are many face contours, as well as plating's, you can add to that gas ported rings, too. That for the upper two rings and then you have lots of options for the oil control rings, in both width and tension.
The first two things I would like info/opinions on is gas ported rings and low tension oil rings. When is gas porting needed and how low can you go with low tension oil rings w/o a vacuum pump?
Re: How to choose piston rings
Post
by mag » Sat Jun 01, 7:22 am
In terms of gas porting I think the preference is now to use half moon grooved in the top ring land.
There far less likely to load up and clog off, but I guess you need more of them then the round hole type due to the reduction in area.
You can cut a man's tongue from his mouth, but that does not mean he’s a liar, it just shows that you fear the truth he might speak about you!
Re: How to choose piston rings
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by Lizardracing » Sat Jun 01, 2:07 pm
I choose the piston first, then the rings for the block material, hose to ring manufactures spec. That's per Total Seal instructions to me.
Re: How to choose piston rings
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by frnkeore » Sun Jun 02, 12:19 pm
I was hoping for more input on this subject so that I could have, at least, good, better, best options to choose from but, more than that, I think it's info that most high end engine builders would have strong opinions on and before laying out money for pistons, I have to spec a ring for them.
Also, I was hoping to get some general info on directions to go, that could have a good cost/benefit ratio, if not for me but, for others, in selecting rings for their applications.
In hopes of getting some specific info, for my build and what rings would be best, here is what it is:
4.280 bore x 4.100 stroke
1.550 CH, 18cc dish
aluminum
0.000 deck clearance x .040 head gasket
This engine has 350 cfm heads and is cammed for to rpm.
At the moment this is the ring set I'm considering, unless I can find something better.
Hastings SM 4.28 - .043 Steel, .043 Duc/Nap, 3mm 11 lb Oil
What are your thoughts?
Re: How to choose piston rings
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by Walter R. Malik » Sun Jun 02, 1:46 pm
What and how rings are chosen and used has everything to do with the end usage of the engine to be built.
Using something normally used in a high horsepower, high RPM engine would be totally wrong in a grocery getter rebuild ... and visa-versa.
AND, then there is all those engines built "in between".
http://www.rmcompetition.com
Specialty engine building at its finest.
Re: How to choose piston rings
Post
by frnkeore » Sun Jun 02, 6:30 pm
Walter R. Malik wrote: ↑Sun Jun 02, 1:46 pm
What and how rings are chosen and used has everything to do with the end usage of the engine to be built.
Using something normally used in a high horsepower, high RPM engine would be totally wrong in a grocery getter rebuild ... and visa-versa.
AND, then there is all those engines built "in between".
So, at what point would you use gas ported pistons, in a NA engine?
Also, in what kind of build would .9 x .9 x 2mm be an advantage over what I'm considering?
How low of oil ring tension, can you use with exhaust evacuated crank case?
Re: How to choose piston rings
Post
by Walter R. Malik » Sun Jun 02, 6:57 pm
Are you interested in learning more about motorcycle piston ring? Contact us today to secure an expert consultation!
frnkeore wrote: ↑Sun Jun 02, 6:30 pm
Walter R. Malik wrote: ↑Sun Jun 02, 1:46 pm
What and how rings are chosen and used has everything to do with the end usage of the engine to be built.
Using something normally used in a high horsepower, high RPM engine would be totally wrong in a grocery getter rebuild ... and visa-versa.
AND, then there is all those engines built "in between".
So, at what point would you use gas ported pistons, in a NA engine?
Also, in what kind of build would .9 x .9 x 2mm be an advantage over what I'm considering?
How low of oil ring tension, can you use with exhaust evacuated crank case?
I will tell you what I have found but, it is certainly not to reflect the "be all, end all".
Gas ports tend to make the rings wear faster, (the thinner the ring, the faster they wear), but, do give slightly more power to the engine; your choice as to what is most important in THAT engine.
They are almost necessary with .043" thick radial dimension rings; unless you are seeking longevity.
Otherwise, they are usually most power effective for me when using fatter, back-cut rings in shallower grooves.
The best quality of thin rings is their conformability to the bore.
I have run 3/16" oil rings as low as 7 pounds fish scale drag with ATF, leaving a whisper of oil residue in the chamber without a crankcase air pump.
Anything else, I usually do whatever the ring manufacturer wants.
http://www.rmcompetition.com
Specialty engine building at its finest.
Re: How to choose piston rings
Post
by Warp Speed » Mon Jun 03, 10:10 am
Walter R. Malik wrote: ↑Sun Jun 02, 6:57 pm
frnkeore wrote: ↑Sun Jun 02, 6:30 pm
Walter R. Malik wrote: ↑Sun Jun 02, 1:46 pm
What and how rings are chosen and used has everything to do with the end usage of the engine to be built.
Using something normally used in a high horsepower, high RPM engine would be totally wrong in a grocery getter rebuild ... and visa-versa.
AND, then there is all those engines built "in between".
So, at what point would you use gas ported pistons, in a NA engine?
Also, in what kind of build would .9 x .9 x 2mm be an advantage over what I'm considering?
How low of oil ring tension, can you use with exhaust evacuated crank case?
I will tell you what I have found but, it is certainly not to reflect the "be all, end all".
Gas ports tend to make the rings wear faster, (the thinner the ring, the faster they wear), but, do give slightly more power to the engine; your choice as to what is most important in THAT engine.
They are almost necessary with .043" thick radial dimension rings; unless you are seeking longevity.
Otherwise, they are usually most power effective for me when using fatter, back-cut rings in shallower grooves.
The best quality of thin rings is their conformability to the bore.
I have run 3/16" oil rings as low as 7 pounds fish scale drag with ATF, leaving a whisper of oil residue in the chamber without a crankcase air pump.
Anything else, I usually do whatever the ring manufacturer wants.
What portion of the ring is wearing faster due to gas ports?
Re: How to choose piston rings
Post
by Walter R. Malik » Mon Jun 03, 11:00 am
Warp Speed wrote: ↑Mon Jun 03, 10:10 am
Walter R. Malik wrote: ↑Sun Jun 02, 6:57 pm
frnkeore wrote: ↑Sun Jun 02, 6:30 pm
So, at what point would you use gas ported pistons, in a NA engine?
Also, in what kind of build would .9 x .9 x 2mm be an advantage over what I'm considering?
How low of oil ring tension, can you use with exhaust evacuated crank case?
I will tell you what I have found but, it is certainly not to reflect the "be all, end all".
Gas ports tend to make the rings wear faster, (the thinner the ring, the faster they wear), but, do give slightly more power to the engine; your choice as to what is most important in THAT engine.
They are almost necessary with .043" thick radial dimension rings; unless you are seeking longevity.
Otherwise, they are usually most power effective for me when using fatter, back-cut rings in shallower grooves.
The best quality of thin rings is their conformability to the bore.
I have run 3/16" oil rings as low as 7 pounds fish scale drag with ATF, leaving a whisper of oil residue in the chamber without a crankcase air pump.
Anything else, I usually do whatever the ring manufacturer wants.
What portion of the ring is wearing faster due to gas ports?
The face and the bore itself is what I have witnessed.
I am talking about 10,000 street miles instead of 25, 000 or more.
http://www.rmcompetition.com
Specialty engine building at its finest.
Re: How to choose piston rings
Post
by jsgarage » Mon Jun 03, 2:58 pm
For poor boys that want to freshen up an existing combination of still usable pistons with wider grooves instead of buying all-new pistons for some size of new thin rings, there are several companies that now make flat steel spacers to resize wider piston grooves for thin rings, ported or not.
They likely will not work quite as well as pistons specifically cut for a thin ring and it introduces more complication in engine assembly, but they're a cheaper way of trying the concept out, maybe for several different thickness of ring in your engine combo and ascertaining any extra face wear.
Re: How to choose piston rings
Post
by Walter R. Malik » Mon Jun 03, 4:37 pm
Clicked on the wrong subject.
http://www.rmcompetition.com
Specialty engine building at its finest.
Re: How to choose piston rings
Post
by frnkeore » Mon Jun 03, 5:23 pm
jsgarage wrote: ↑Mon Jun 03, 2:58 pm
For poor boys that want to freshen up an existing combination of still usable pistons with wider grooves instead of buying all-new pistons for some size of new thin rings, there are several companies that now make flat steel spacers to resize wider piston grooves for thin rings, ported or not.
They likely will not work quite as well as pistons specifically cut for a thin ring and it introduces more complication in engine assembly, but they're a cheaper way of trying the concept out, maybe for several different thickness of ring in your engine combo and ascertaining any extra face wear.
Can you list the company's and/or web sites?
Re: How to choose piston rings
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by Roundybout » Mon Jun 03, 7:31 pm
If you want to learn more, please visit our website Piston Ring Material.
I know Total Seal makes a spacer to be able to use thinner rings in pistons with grooves meant for thicker rings. 1.2mm" or .8mm" rings in 5/64 groove or .8mm" rings in 1/16 groove for example.
Not sure how I like that idea long term or as a solution though. Ring flutter and not a true representation of what a thin ring can and can't do for you. Not to mention just more crevices for things to hide and carbon up. Don't know how that would react to piston ports either. I think they are mainly used for classes where standard width piston grooves are required or some other silly rule.